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To All That Believe You Need The Law For Salvation And Not God’s Gift Of Free Grace:

Romans 10: 1-4
Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Titus 3: 5-7
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 3: 24
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Roman 5: 9
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
Galatians 2: 16
16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Notice that the works of the Law are contrasted with faith?

Why wouldn’t you want the FREE GIFT OF GRACE?
God Bless

Brian Mason

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About beaconapologetics

A Christian Apologist. A follower of Jesus. A defender of the Christian Faith

17 responses to “To All That Believe You Need The Law For Salvation And Not God’s Gift Of Free Grace:

  1. “And everyone who goes to purgatory will be saved — that’s a promise! As St. Paul tells us:”
    “Now if any one builds on the foundation [of their salvation] with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw — each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day [of Judgment] will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward [heaven]. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through [purging] fire. (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)”
    (NASB) According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, [d]precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test [e]the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
    How in the world do you get purgatory out of that? What translation was that anyway? Did you add (purging) to God’s word? I didn’t even see THAT in the Catholic Bible! You cannot add to the word of God that is a heresy if you did?
    Here is some problems with “purgatory”
    It is not explicitly found in the Bible.
    It implies that the righteousness of Christ does not cleanse from all sin.
    It implies that justification is not by faith alone.
    It implies that there is something we must do in order to be cleansed of sin.

    I cannot remember discussing the missing second commandment with you. Oh well.
    (Revelation 21:27) 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those [t]whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
    What in the world does that with purgatory. I see nothing of a holding tank for souls there?
    “And I think you’re misunderstanding. Nothing impure can enter heaven (Revelation 21:27). So we do have to be completely sanctified to enter heaven. That is different than “attaining perfection” — only Jesus is perfect! Even Protestants believe that sanctification is a process — it doesn’t happen all at once, but only over the course of our lives.” Wow I can’t believe the license you take with scripture!

  2. sarahrachel96b ⋅

    I didn’t say you said we could *do anything*. I said you said we didn’t have to *do anything* to be saved. That we can be saved by *doing nothing*!

    You said yourself “Christians are not under the Law and don’t have to keep it to be saved or maintain their salvation.” Meaning we are not required to keep the Ten Commandments. That is not what “not under the Law” means, but if you take your words to the logical conclusion, a Christian really can *do anything* and still be saved!

    You are taking “works” to mean “anything we do” — which is not at all what St. Paul means. You are taking “we have to do works” to mean we have to *do something*, anything at all! And yes, the Catholic Church does teach that we have to *do something* to be saved. Salvation is a free gift of grace, but it’s not something that’s just handed to us. We have to take it and walk in it! It’s not something we can get by *doing nothing*. And it’s not something that doesn’t have responsibilities. We have to keep the commandments of Christ — which His grace enables us to do. And if we fall, His forgiveness is always there for us. But that doesn’t change the fact that we are called to “be holy, as He is holy” (1 Peter 1:13-17).

    And I think you’re misunderstanding. Nothing impure can enter heaven (Revelation 21:27). So we do have to be completely sanctified to enter heaven. That is different than “attaining perfection” — only Jesus is perfect! Even Protestants believe that sanctification is a process — it doesn’t happen all at once, but only over the course of our lives. So only people who have finished that process when they die — who have no grave sin in their lives and who have been fully purified — can enter heaven immediately when they die. But all Christians who die in the grace of the Lord will be saved. That’s what purgatory is for, to finish that process of sanctification and purification for those who didn’t finish in their lives. It’s a place of grace, not of punishment. And everyone who goes to purgatory will be saved — that’s a promise! As St. Paul tells us:

    Now if any one builds on the foundation [of their salvation] with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw — each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day [of Judgment] will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward [heaven]. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through [purging] fire. (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)

    And the second commandment — now you’re just taunting me. I went over that with you at length and explained it very well.

  3. Sarah I challenge you to show me where I said that I meant we” could do anything”? Please don’t misrepresent my words. We are definitely as Christians to uphold Moral Laws. No argument.
    My position is and will stay that a RC has to do works as it is clearly outlined in the Catechism. You are in fact contradicting the RCC Doctrine if you are saying you don’t have to do works.
    Is it not the catholic position that you must obtain perfection to enter heaven? And why did the RCC remove the second commandment?

  4. sarahrachel96b ⋅

    I’m just trying to explain to you what you’re misunderstanding. And I can’t do that with just one verse. But I will try to do better. Basically, you’re taking a few verses out of context and making them mean something they don’t mean. When Paul talks about the “works of the Law” he is referring specifically to the ceremonial precepts of the Old Jewish Law like circumcision and blood sacrifices. And yes, Christ has set us free from that (Colossians 2:11-17). But you’re taking “free from works of the Law” to mean *doing anything*, as if we’re no longer held to moral standards or required to keep the commandments of Jesus, and that is against everything else Scripture says! Jesus says Himself that we must keep the commandments to enter eternal life (Matt 19:16-21).

    Jesus, St. Paul, St. Peter, St. John, all say that we will be judged according to our works (Matthew ch. 25, Romans 2:6-8, 1 Peter 1:14-17, 1 John 2:3-6). So how does that work? Is it “works” that save us? No! The prophets said that God would give us a new covenant and write the law in our hearts (Jeremiah 31:31-34) — that we would be circumcised in our hearts, and would obey all the commandments of God (Deuteronomy 30:6-8). And that’s what Jesus has done — not abolished the law, but fulfilled it (Matt 5:17-20). He’s given us a new law of grace and love (James 1:22-25), and made us able, by His grace, to keep His commandments (John 15:1-7).

    “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

    Walking in the Spirit! That’s what Jesus enables us to do! And walking in the Spirit, as Jesus says, we bear good fruit. And those who walk according to the Spirit will be saved, but those who walk according to the flesh will be condemned (Galatians 5:16-25).

    I could go into a lot more, but trying to show you where your understanding is wrong in Romans is where it got complicated. 😦

    About saints:

    And yes, the saints are alive! Jesus said, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25-26) “Truly, truly, I say to you, if any one keeps my word, he will never see death.” (John 8:51) “This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.” (John 6:50) “‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” (Matthew 22:32) “We know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.” (Romans 6:9) “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23) What makes you think they are dead? Do you not believe in heaven??

  5. Sarah could you please keep your comments smaller? Lets try to keep them to a paragraph or two? How am I supposed to address that? Seriously? I frankly do not have enough time in the day to read that. Thank you. It will be move coherent in smaller doses.

  6. sarahrachel96b ⋅

    Real Christians obey the Lord Jesus Christ, and follow the whole counsel of God (Acts 20:27). How do you suppose your understanding of a few verses of St. Paul taken out of context, nullifies the repeated commandments of Jesus and everyone else in Scripture, even St. Paul? If what you believe doesn’t line up what Jesus says or even with what Paul says in other places, then you’re clearly not understanding something correctly. There is nothing in Scripture that says we’re not supposed to obey the commandments and everything that says we are.

    (Sorry for all the long quotes but I wanted to be sure I was getting the whole context of what was being said. And sorry this is so long!)

    Here’s Jesus (and He says this several times but I only copied one to be brief):

    And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” The young man said to him, “All these I have observed; what do I still lack?” Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” (Matt 19:16-21)

    I think I see the mistake you are making. Like I said, in Romans and Galatians, the “Law” Paul is talking about is the Torah, the Jewish Law, the Law of Moses, the Old Law. And Jesus has set us free from that — we have died to that Law, and are no longer bound by its precepts. Jesus came to give us a new circumcision made without hands, a circumcision of the heart (given through Baptism):

    In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in Baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands [the precepts of the Old Law]; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the principalities and powers and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in him. Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath [the observances of the Old Law]. These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:11-17)

    Christ came not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it:

    “Think not that I have come to abolish the Law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt 5:17-20)

    As was prophesied, Christ has brought a New Law, a law of grace, a law of liberty, a “law written in our hearts”:

    “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

    And St. Paul speaks of this law written on our hearts:

    It is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts. (Romans 2:13-15)

    And St. James speaks of this New Law even more clearly:

    But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing. (James 1:22-25)

    And there is a difference between the “works of the Law” — the observances and precepts of the Old Law like circumcision and blood sacrifices, which do not save us — and keeping the commandments of this law of grace, the new law written on our hearts, the right and wrong revealed by the Old Law, the true moral law that Jesus came to fulfill.

    In other words — there is a difference between observing the ceremonial precepts of the old, written law (circumcision) and keeping the commandments of new, perfect law, as Jesus commands us. Paul clearly makes a distinction here:

    Circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then those who are physically uncircumcised but keep the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal. His praise is not from men but from God. (Romans 2:25-29)

    There’s that circumcision of the heart again — like the Old Testament says (in a clear prophecy to what the New Testament is talking about! to the salvation Jesus would bring):

    And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. And the LORD your God will put all these curses upon your foes and enemies who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the voice of the LORD, and keep all his commandments which I command you this day. (Deuteronomy 30:6-8)

    St. Paul says again:

    For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:28-31)

    Here “upholding the law” (which saves) is different than “works of the Law” (which condemns)! And again:

    Let every one lead the life which the Lord has assigned to him, and in which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches. Was any one at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was any one at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision. For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God. (1 Cor 7:17-19)

    And St. Paul speaks of this “new law” which has made us “obedient from the heart” and “slaves of righteousness”:

    What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. (Romans 6:15-18)

    He makes the distinction between several “laws” here:

    So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. (Romans 7:21-25)

    The “law of God” is what I’m talking about — and not what Paul is talking about by “works of the Law.” And it’s even more explicit in the next chapter:

    There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. (Romans 8:1-6)

    So clearly there a new law at hand, a new law of Christ! And now, walking by the Spirit — accepting the grace He has given us — we can fulfill the just requirement of the law.

    Just as Paul says:

    But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would. But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
    (Galatians 5:16-25)

    “Righteousness through faith” is not something magic like Protestants seem to think, where God says you are “righteous” even though you are not really righteous. “Righteousness through faith” is yielding to the Spirit and walking by the Spirit, being sanctified and transformed and made righteous so that we can fulfill the “just requirement of the law” — not the Old Law of sin and death, but the new law of grace through Christ!

    If we were not supposed to keep the true law, then would St. Paul say this?

    He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. (Romans 2:6-8)

    Or would St. Peter say this?

    As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile. (1 Peter 1:14-17)

    Or would St. John say this?

    By this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. (1 John 2:3-6)

    And yes, the saints are alive! Jesus said, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25-26) “Truly, truly, I say to you, if any one keeps my word, he will never see death.” (John 8:51) “This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.” (John 6:50) “‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” (Matthew 22:32) “We know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.” (Romans 6:9) “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23) What makes you think they are dead? Do you not believe in heaven??

  7. Real Christians have died to the Law. Those who are not Christians, who are not saved, are still under the Law because they have not died to the Law. The reason that the Law is dead to Christians is because they’ve died with Christ (Romans 7:4). Christians are not under the Law and don’t have to keep it to be saved or maintain their salvation. Of course Christians try to keep the Law because they are saved, and they love God. The Law is powerless over Christians – it cannot save them or keep them or cause them to be lost by not keeping it – they have died to it and it is dead to them. Paul speaks in Romans 3: 8:

    “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law,” (Rom. 3:28). (apart from loving God, Deut. 6:5 and loving your neighbor, Lev. 19:18).
    “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,” (Rom. 4:5).

    I notice you use present tense when speaking of the Saints as well. Are they not dead?

  8. sarahrachel96b ⋅

    Yes, I do. Jesus also says you must keep the Ten Commandments. So does St. Paul. So does St. Peter. So does St. John. Do you?

  9. Okay I too have the need of rest. However as the Roman Catholic Church says: You must keep the ten commandments. Do you? We can discuss tomorrow.

  10. Let’s do this tomorrow. I am sure you had a long day at church.

  11. sarahrachel96b ⋅

    Thanks for posting them. Yes, I’ll answer your questions if you’ll answer mine. It’s personal for me because I want you to stop posting attacks on my Church and my faith. I think you have a lot of mistaken ideas and I hope you’ll realize that. I am a Christian — I hope you are too. And I hope one way or another we’ll be able to help each other to a better understanding of the truth of Christ.

    For tonight though I’m about to go to bed. Unless it’s quick I’ll answer your first thing tomorrow.

  12. Sarah, This is only personal because I truly want you to be saved. Will you answer questions one at a time? I promise I am not tricking you or anything that would be disingenuous. See I posted your comments. Will you oblige me in answering one question at a time? You as well can ask me one question at a time. No need for hours of constructing messages….okay?

  13. sarahrachel96b ⋅

    (Here, I spent another hour or two and made it all nice for you. Now you can’t say I’m being disrespectful. If you delete it this time then you’re being very mean, and I’ll have to conclude that you’re not able to answer it.)

    Brian, you have a lot of misconceptions about the Catholic faith. You say you used to be Catholic. Out of curiosity, when were you Catholic? For how long? Were you ever catechized? Were you confirmed? Because you have a lot of mistaken ideas about what the Catholic Church teaches and what Christians have historically believed.

    Catholic Christians do not believe that “Mary can save us,” or anything of the sort. We do not “worship” Mary or give her any honor that is due only to her Son. She is our mother and our friend, not our Savior. She does not save us, and no Catholic believes that she can save us. But honoring her and praying for her intercession cannot hurt us.

    Catholic Christians also do not believe in “works based salvation.” You have quoted some passages from the Catechism, but none of these actually show that. I’m not sure you understand what “works based salvation” means. It means that a believer depends on their own works for salvation, that they think their own works can save them, that they can somehow earn eternal life apart from grace. This is not what Catholics believe. That belief is a heresy called Pelagianism, and it was the Catholic Church that declared it a heresy in the first place, and still declares it a heresy today.

    You seem to hold the view that doing anything is a “work” — and that we can be saved without doing anything. But that idea contradicts almost the whole of Scripture. You are taking a few verses from Scripture and interpreting them to mean something that is inconsistent with the rest of Scripture. And you never responded to my previous points about Baptism. Jesus says Himself that we have to be baptized to be saved (John 3:5, Mark 16:15-16). Do you think Jesus is teaching “works based salvation”? If what you believe is something different than what Jesus says, then you’re believing a “different gospel.”

    You ask if I’m keeping the Ten Commandments, and imply that if I’m keeping them I’m believing in “works based salvation.” But you pasted the Ten Commandments a few weeks ago and made a big deal about the Catholic Church “changing” them. This is inconsistent. Which is it: are Christians supposed to keep the Ten Commandments or aren’t they? Are you keeping the Ten Commandments? Do you think that if I’m keeping the Ten Commandments, I’m disobeying the Lord? Jesus said Himself, “If you would enter eternal life, keep the commandments (Matt 19:17). “He who does the commandments and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom on heaven” (Matt 5:19). “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments” (John 14:15). “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love” (John 15:10). “He who abides in Me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in Me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned” (John 15:5-6). Do you think a Christian will get to heaven by not obeying the commandments?

    You say this is “works based,” but I’m only quoting what Jesus said. He rewards those who obey Him and love their neighbor and do good (Matt ch. 25, 15:15-27, 10:40-42, Mark 9:41, Luke 6:35, Rom 2:6-8, 1 Cor 3:13-14, 2 Cor 5:10, 2 John 4-9, 1 Pet 1:13-17, etc.). So does this mean we think our “works” will save us? No, not at all. For Jesus said that apart from Him we can do nothing (John 15:4-5, Heb 13:20-21, 1 Cor 15:10): it is only by His grace that we can do anything at all. St. Paul says that we are to “obey [and by obeying] work out our own salvation” — not that it’s any of our works that save us, but that “God is working in us, both to will [to want to do good] and to work [to be able to do good]” (Phil 2:12-13).

    So does that mean we have to be perfect and never make mistakes to get to heaven? No! For all of us have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and we are justified by His grace as a gift (Rom 3:23-24). Yes, even Catholics believe it’s a free gift. But we have to accept His grace, and be transformedsanctified — by His grace. And that’s through the Sacraments — not “works” we have to do to win God’s favor, but works of grace He does for us, because we have His favor.

    These verses you’ve quoted to me here: interestingly, I’ve quoted some of the same ones to you. I think how you are interpreting these verses is incorrect.

    Rom 10:1-4 — St. Paul is referring to the Jews here, who pursue their own righteousness through the works of the Jewish Law (the Torah, the Law of Moses) (Rom 9:30-32). That is what he means by “the works of the Law.” His main point in writing both Romans and Galatians was telling Christians (especially Gentile Christians) that observing the Law of Moses (especially circumcision) is not necessary for salvation in Christ. Does he mean that by observing the Jewish Law, a Christian will not be saved? No, because Paul is a Jewish Christian who still observes the Torah. He is saying only that it is not the works of the Jewish Law that save, but faith in Christ. This has nothing at all to do with whether or not we have to do something to be saved. Doing something has nothing to do with the (Jewish) Law.

    Titus 3:5-7 — I cited this same Scripture to you. Yes, Catholics agree totally that it’s not on the basis of deeds we have done in righteousness that we are saved, but only by His mercy — which we receive by the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit — Baptism!

    Rom 3:24 — I cited this same verse to you. I think you are forgetting something important — St. Paul assumes all of the people he’s writing to, who are being justified by grace through faith, have already been baptized (Rom 6:3-5).

    Rom 5:9 — Yes, I agree!

    Gal 2:16 — Again, St. Paul expects that everyone in his audience has already been baptized (Gal 3:27). He is warning the baptized Christians not to subject themselves to the Jewish Law again (Gal 5:2-4).

    You are making the mistake of thinking “the works of the [Jewish] Law” have anything at all to do with the Sacraments of the Church which Jesus gives us as a gift of His grace or with the good works of mercy and love that we do by the grace that He gives us. Paul says himself that “in Christ Jesus neither circumcision [the Jewish Law] nor uncircumcision [Christ’s salvation by grace through faith] is of any avail, but faith working in love” (Gal 5:6). He says again, “Neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God” (1 Cor 7:19). St. James says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

    How do you square your conclusion that we don’t have to do anything — even more, that doing something makes one guilty of belief in “works based salvation”! — with all the rest of Scripture? Jesus says that we have to strive to enter the narrow door to salvation (Luke 13:24), and many will seek to enter and not be able. Yes, salvation is a free gift of grace — but it’s not something that’s handed to us on a silver platter that never requires any work. Being a child of God is a great blessing, but it doesn’t come without responsibilities. We are called to obey the Lord and keep His commandments. St. John says that whoever believes Jesus is the Christ is a child of God — and that the children of God love God and obey His commandments — and that His commandments are not burdensome — for we have victory in our faith that overcomes the world (1 John 5:1-5).

  14. sarahrachel96b ⋅

    You think that I didn’t focus on that for five hours…!? How was it disrespectful? By disagreeing with you? Using exclamation points? I didn’t call you names or say bad things about you or anything — just that I think you are wrong. How is that disrespectful? And you accusing me of not being a Christian and telling me I’m going to hell is not disrespectful! I addressed all of your points and answered all of your Bible verses. I spent like five hours doing it. If you have any decency or fairness in you at all — if you are a Christian man willing to address a Christian argument — then please fish that out of the toilet and give me a response that’s worthy of the effort I gave you. It is not cool to delete comments. That only shows your bad faith and that you probably don’t have any answer for me.

  15. Yes I did it was very disrespectful and I don’t think that even you would want that posted if you were look at it in another day or two. Please focus!

  16. sarahrachel96b ⋅

    Oh my goodness, you did NOT just delete the comment I spent four or five hours writing you!!!?

  17. beaconapologetics ⋅

    A great article from John MacArthur from http://www.gtycanada.org

    Grace to You :: Unleashing God’s Truth One Verse at a Time
    Exposing the Heresies of the Catholic Church: Mary Worship
    Scripture: Selected Scriptures
    Code: B130227
    by John MacArthur
    After his prophetic vision of the eternal glories of heaven at the end of the book of Revelation, the
    apostle John described how he was overwhelmed by what he’d seen.
    And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these
    things. But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the
    prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.” (Revelation22:8-9)
    The Roman Catholic Church has committed the same error as John, promoting a mere citizen of
    heaven to an improper place of authority and honor. Despite the overwhelming testimony of Scripture,
    the Catholic Church has elevated Mary—a self-described servant of the Lord (Luke 1:38)—to the
    same level as God, if not higher.
    In his Ineffabilis Deus in 1854, Pope Pius IX established as dogma the immaculate conception of
    Mary, which preserved her from inheriting original sin. His concluding statements provide a good
    summary of the Catholic view of Mary.
    Let all the children of the Catholic Church, who are so very dear to us, hear these words of ours. With
    a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to
    the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter
    confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts
    and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to
    be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because, while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and
    having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race. And since
    she has been appointed by God to be the Queen of heaven and earth, and is exalted above all the
    choirs of angels and saints, and even stands at the right hand of her only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ
    our Lord, she presents our petitions in a most efficacious manner. What she asks, she obtains. Her
    pleas can never be unheard.
    Those words are echoed and expanded on throughout Roman Catholic history. Tradition dictates that
    Mary is part of the monarchy of heaven, soliciting grace and mercy from the Lord on behalf of sinners,
    and covering sin by distributing from her Treasury of Merit. She became a co-redeemer with Christ inHis suffering on the cross, and is now a co-mediator alongside Him in heaven—essentially an
    alternative avenue of access to God. She replaces the Holy Spirit in bestowing aid and comfort to
    believers. In effect, she becomes an additional member of the Trinity.
    That blasphemy stands in sharp contrast to what Scripture actually says about Mary, and even what
    she says about herself. Luke 1:46-55 records her humble reaction to the news that she would give
    birth to the Son of God.
    And Mary said: “My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. For He has had
    regard for the humble state of His bondslave; for behold, from this time on all generations will count
    me blessed. For the Mighty One has done great things for me; and holy is His name. And His mercy
    is upon generation after generation toward those who fear Him. He has done mighty deeds with His
    arm; He has scattered those who were proud in the thoughts of their heart. He has brought down
    rulers from their thrones, and has exalted those who were humble. He has filled the hungry with good
    things; and sent away the rich empty-handed. He has given help to Israel His servant, in
    remembrance of His mercy, as He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and his descendants forever.”
    The God she praised—the God of the Bible—does not need to be coaxed or wooed to distribute His
    blessings. He’s not harsh, distant, or indifferent—He’s gracious, righteous, and merciful. Rather than
    glorifying herself, she humbly worshiped the Lord.
    Scripture actually has very little to say about Mary. There’s no description of her physical appearance,
    nothing about her life, her later years after Christ’s death, or her own death and burial. And when she
    does briefly appear with the disciples and the other believers on the day of Pentecost, she’s not an
    object of worship or even a leader in the early church—she’s just one among many. There simply are
    no biblical examples of anyone ever praying to her, honoring her, or venerating her.
    Nor does she play a role in any biblical explanation of the gospel. Paul wrote a magnificent treatise on
    the doctrine of salvation that we know as the book of Romans, and all he said about the mother of
    Jesus is that she was “a descendent of David” (Romans 1:3). He’s even less specific in Galatians,
    another lengthy exposition of the pure, true gospel in which he simply said that Christ was “born of a
    woman” (Galatians 4:4).
    Contrast that with the unending Catholic volumes on the life of Mary, the miracles of Mary, the death
    of Mary, the apparitions of Mary, and on and on it goes. That’s why it’s often a shock for Catholics to
    read the Bible and see how little is actually said about Mary.
    But that’s what happens when you elevate tradition to the level of Scripture and ascribe to men the
    infallible characteristics that only belong to God. It warps the truth of Scripture and distorts the Person
    and work of Jesus Christ.God alone is our Redeemer, our Deliverer, our Benefactor, and our Comforter. He alone is to be
    worshiped, venerated, adored, and petitioned. The testimony of Scripture is clear.
    Gather yourselves and come; draw near together, you fugitives of the nations; they have no
    knowledge, who carry about their wooden idol and pray to a god who cannot save. Declare and set
    forth your case; indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has
    long since declared it? Is it not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, a righteous God
    and a Savior; there is none except Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am
    God, and there is no other. (Isaiah45:20-22)
    Available online at: http://www.gtycanada.org/blog/B130227
    COPYRIGHT (C) 2013 Grace to You
    You may reproduce this Grace to You content for non-commerical purposes in accordance with
    Grace to You’s Copyright Policy (http://www.gty.org/connect/Copyright).

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